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#176873 - 03/21/06 04:54 PM
Re: Taking a break…
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damien
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Registered: 01/23/05
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In reply to:
I could see if I had some type of hidden agenda to make someone look bad, like a racist, then sure get defensive.
Well it definitely appeared to me that someone (not you) had a not-so-hidden agenda to make me look bad. Based on nothing I did or said. Only by virtue of a group I was born into.
I'm wondering if maybe you are thinking that my frustration was directed at you. But that wasn't the case at all.
And my buddy the Strapster is right. I am soooo f-ing tired of being made out to be the bad guy.
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Screw the whales, save the subjunctive!
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#176874 - 03/21/06 04:54 PM
Re: Taking a break…
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StrapingYoungLad
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When it comes down to it, it is an us vs them.
However...
On St paddies day me and my concervative buddies all got togeetehr with the local Liberal-Democrats (though the Labour party didnt turn up) and got pissed together.
Its just about learning to accept other peoples beliefs and not give them reason to feel such is threatened. Questioning makes people feel threatened unless you are already in some kind of understanding with that person. Does noone remember the old rule of ettiquette "do not discuss politics in polite company". I'm not saying we shouldnt discuss it, but you really must be extra careful in how you approach it.
And dont entertain the idea that we will be anyway other than where we started from no matter how civil things remain. People do not switch their political ideology from a simply debate, it takes life changing to circumstances to do that.
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#176875 - 03/21/06 04:59 PM
Re: Taking a break…
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StrapingYoungLad
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In reply to:
And my buddy the Strapster is right. I am soooo f-ing tired of being made out to be the bad guy.
Yeah!
Oh I'm right-wing...obviously I believe abortion should be banned. I believe in tighter immigration controls...clearly I am a skin-head. I am pro-war in Iraq...clearly I am an neo-imperialist. I love Britain with a fiery passion...of course that means I want to see Africans sold as slaves again. 
If you cnat read the sarcasm in the above then you are lacking in your head.
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#176876 - 03/21/06 05:14 PM
Re: Taking a break…
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ME_MYSELF_AND_I
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Perhaps Im naiive, but I dont see how that implies that you are a racist. I dont think anyone who has participated in our little discussion has an agenda, hidden or not, to make you look racist. So I was mistaken. You didnt call anybody any names, but you swore at someone, and that only adds fuel to the fire when we're already talking about a very sensitive subject.
StrapingYoungLad:
I get your point, but you cant really compare UK politics to US race relations. Whenever people feel threatened it turns to us vs. them, when it shouldnt, especially if you are truly trying to understand things from a different point of view. When I said we end up right up where we started at, I was speaking on the macro level. Surely Damien wont change my mind overnight, and I wont change his. I was talking about US race relations in general. We will never make any progress until we can have open discussion about race.
_________________________
The most valuable and useful of all talents and abilities is that of never using two words or descriptions when one will do or suffice.
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#176877 - 03/21/06 05:17 PM
Re: Taking a break…
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StrapingYoungLad
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We have race relations problems in the UK you know. 10% of this country is non-white and because its a relatively new thing the problem is in some ways worse.
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#176878 - 03/21/06 05:21 PM
Re: Taking a break…
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StrapingYoungLad
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We have the same issues about class differences between the different races...though its more religeous based because of our Muslims who make up 3% of the country. People debate about what actualy makes someone British and whether multiculturalism works. I guess the difference is the emmigrnat cultures to America have all been in the "melting-pot"...something we need over here!
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#176879 - 03/21/06 05:23 PM
Re: Taking a break…
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ME_MYSELF_AND_I
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I didnt say you didnt have race relation problems in the UK, i just said that you cant compare UK politics to US race relations. I wouldnt necessarily argue that relatively new UK race problems are worse than long, deep rooted, US problems either. Im no expert on UK race relations, in what ways would you say your race relations are worse than the US?
_________________________
The most valuable and useful of all talents and abilities is that of never using two words or descriptions when one will do or suffice.
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#176880 - 03/21/06 05:26 PM
Re: Taking a break…
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ME_MYSELF_AND_I
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We have a pseudo melting pot. Things arent as they may seem to foreigners.
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#176881 - 03/21/06 05:28 PM
Re: Taking a break…
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StrapingYoungLad
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Well you've at least lived alongside each other alot longer. Plus you have the whole "melting-pot" thing; people emigrated to America to be Americans...wheras when people emigrate to Britain they often like to take their home-country with them...or this is at least the case with most Muslims.
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#176882 - 03/21/06 05:35 PM
Re: Taking a break…
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ME_MYSELF_AND_I
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Dont believe everything you read in textbooks on the US. The melting pot is an idealized way of looking at things. I'd say segregation is the norm. Especially in the city I live in. If it weren't for school, I could go for weeks not seeing anybody of another race. I had a class on western europe and all we really learned about UK race relations is that people are worried that places like Turkey flood european nations with immigrants and counrties are loosing their national identities. Im sure its much more complicated than that though.
_________________________
The most valuable and useful of all talents and abilities is that of never using two words or descriptions when one will do or suffice.
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#176883 - 03/21/06 07:23 PM
Re: Taking a break…
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ajmakoko
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>A sense of one's proper dignity or value; self-respect
That has absolutely NOTHING to do with
It's about inherent dignity and self-worth
Pride, in the way we are using it here, has to do with a person, and their viewpoint on themselves. Their viewpoint may change by getting or losing things that they value highly- whether those things may be possessions, characteristics, or whatever. So what I'm saying is, why are you holding your skin color in such high esteem? What does it matter? It is what it is, there's no changing it. Accept it, and move on.
Side note - I don't really think I'm getting my point across, so if you don't understand what I'm trying to say, I don't blame you.
Edited by ajmakoko (03/21/06 07:29 PM)
_________________________
You are a child of the universe,
no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
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#176884 - 03/21/06 07:55 PM
Re: Taking a break…
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winged
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Registered: 02/10/05
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I completely agree, ajmakoko.
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#176885 - 03/22/06 12:56 AM
Re: Taking a break…
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damien
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In reply to:
We will never make any progress until we can have open discussion about race.
And one of the ways I know we have a long way to go is that we still are not allowed to have a truly open discussion about race.
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Screw the whales, save the subjunctive!
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#176886 - 03/22/06 12:58 AM
Re: Taking a break…
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damien
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I don't think that a melting pot is what we should be striving for anyway. I think it should be more like a tossed salad.
In a melting pot everything (everyone) disappears into one homogenous stuff.
In a tossed salad, different veggies are co-existing together in the same salad bowl, while retaining their individual identities. So a tomato can be both a tomato and part of a salad.
Make sense?
_________________________
Screw the whales, save the subjunctive!
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#176887 - 03/22/06 01:05 AM
Re: Taking a break…
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damien
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In reply to:
Pride, in the way we are using it here, has to do with a person, and their viewpoint on themselves. Their viewpoint may change by getting or losing things that they value highly- whether those things may be possessions, characteristics, or whatever. So what I'm saying is, why are you holding your skin color in such high esteem? What does it matter? It is what it is, there's no changing it. Accept it, and move on.
I fear you totally missed the point of what I was saying. As I said earlier, the definition of pride I was using is dignity, value, and self-respect. Why should I not esteem my skin color, as esteem basically means respect.
And holding something in esteem is totally different from holding it over above something different. Respecting my black hair doesn't at all preclude me from respecting somebody else's blond hair.
It seems kind of silly to talk about respecting hair, and maybe that's your point. But when you talk about skin color, you're kind of talking about a piece of your identity. That should be respected, no?
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Screw the whales, save the subjunctive!
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#176888 - 03/22/06 03:29 AM
Re: Taking a break…
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StrapingYoungLad
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In reply to:
In a tossed salad, different veggies are co-existing together in the same salad bowl, while retaining their individual identities. So a tomato can be both a tomato and part of a salad.
The problem comes on how divergent these different identities are. Some things really do not mix. The problem is with minorities that hold some extra-national loyalty. Muslims are the big example. They are all part of the "nation of Islam" (term was not invented by Black Americans) and have a form of pan-Islam unity of varying degree's demanded of each of them. Thats why they display a much greater affinity with other Muslim nations, that their family has never had anything to do with, while our other minroities have integrated much better, particulalry Sikhs and Hindus. Blacks have been a tough one for reasons I'm not entirely sure of...perhaps cultural influence from American blakcs is making it harder for them to integrate? Its certainly nothing like it is with Muslims. Chinese are a seperate case again, they dont integrate but they dont have an extra-national loyalty, except to their families, but not to any Chinese nationalists ideology, for reasons I do not entirely understand. For this reasons Chinamen come here and do not integrate, but at the same time keep to themselves and rarely antagonise the community at large (no more so than any white person would for example). Finally, our greatets minroity? Australians. Odd, most people dont even relaise this. Why? Cos Australians dont cause tension...except at Cricket matches.
EDIT: Oh Jews are a good one. They display an extra-national loyalty in the form of Israel yet at the same time they managte to integrate and fall in with the establishment. I think thats from their long history of trying to fit in. Well if we presume its something they had to learn maybe the vast majority of Muslims can too, but I doubt it.
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#176889 - 03/22/06 03:36 AM
Re: Taking a break…
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StrapingYoungLad
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Loc: Leeds, UK
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In reply to:
So what I'm saying is, why are you holding your skin color in such high esteem? What does it matter?
Its a visible symbol of ones heritage, which I imagine would would be of more value in America than in Britain. I would never say I'm proud to be white, but I am proud to be Welsh and British and the heir to the entire island of Britain from being a descendant of the Romano-British inhabitants of the land. All people of such ancestry so happen to be white. I see no problem with people of other heritage's also showing pride, indeed I expect such of them.
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#176890 - 03/22/06 11:11 AM
Re: Taking a break…
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OldFolks
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Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 2434
Loc: Just Beyond the Reach of Light
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>>>"I would never say I'm proud to be white, but I am proud to be Welsh and British..."
Very Well put, Strapping.
I would never say I'm proud to be indian, but I am extremely proud of my tribe and its culture.
The following isn't necessarily directed at anyone but just offered to the discussion in general.
There is nothing at all wrong with "white pride" as it is meant in this thread. The problem comes in when it's read or heard and its popular meaning is what is understood by the audience it finds.
In this part of the country, maybe it's different elsewhere, the term "white pride" has certain implications and meanings for the simple reason of the groups and people who like to employ its common use. Those who regularly use that phrase here are generally the KKK, Neo-Nazi's, Skin Heads and the ignorant poor (I don't me ignorant as an insult but rather ignorant as uneducated beyond simple survival skills). Those groups use that phrase as a way of claiming superiority and demeaning the minority they seek to oppress or be rid of. A minorities experience with the phrase "white pride" is often negative. Generally, that experience is some kind of derivation of having a bud bottle thrown at them from a pick-up truck with a "White Pride World Wide" bumper sticker and getting told to get out of "our" country.
Other than in this thread, though I probably have, I cannot think of single instance where the term "white pride" has been used as positive affirmation of ones' self.
The general use seems always to be;
From the obvious racist -
White Pride --> We are superior --> The minority is inferior
From the closet or unconscious racist -
White Pride --> I'm not a racist --> This is what is wrong with the minority or this is why the minority is pulling down the country.
The common use simply is not:
White Pride --> Self affirmation of culture and race and the contribution to humanity that my race has made.
In general common use, accolades of pride are more culturally oriented i.e., proud to be American, proud to be Oklahoman, proud to be British, etc. So, when a minority sees or hears the phrase "white pride" certain alarm bells are going to go off simply because of their experiences and who they have seen and heard commonly invoke that phrase.
In societal interaction, right or not, the popular definition of a word or phrase will always trump the literal definition. For instance, most people will not say something like, "My boss only pays a niggardly wage." It's a perfectly legitimate use, but the word or phrase nigger, sand-nigger, prairie-nigger, etc. has always been used as an instrument of oppression so any similar word or word derived from it is now taboo and for arguably a very good reason. The same thing is now happening to "white pride" the people (that minorities, anyway, generally think of) who commonly invoke that phrase have assigned it a new meaning, which is, I'm superior, your subservient or inferior. To the neo-racist the phrase, white pride has been a replacement for nigger in public use, for what, I think, are rather transparent political reasons.
I think that the problem with the phrase, white pride, lies not with an overly sensitive minority or with political correctness, but rather with the people, that most white Americans never have to deal with, who have taken the phrase and redefined its use as a tool of racism, divisiveness and hate.
I hope that I have explained why, in general, most minorities will see the phrase, "white pride" in such a negative light.
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There is no punishment. There is no reward. There are only consequences.
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#176891 - 03/22/06 11:13 AM
Post deleted by sdp
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Anonymous
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#176892 - 03/22/06 12:31 PM
Re: Taking a break…
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damien
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Registered: 01/23/05
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In reply to:
In this part of the country, maybe it's different elsewhere, the term "white pride" has certain implications and meanings for the simple reason of the groups and people who like to employ its common use.
yes. great post. totally agree.
Maybe I should have clarified MY definitions of the terms used at the beginning. We might then have been able to avoid a lot of this banter.
However, I still feel that even if I had done that, I would have been taken to task at some level. But that's neither here nor there at this point.
You said wise things. Thanks.
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Screw the whales, save the subjunctive!
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#176893 - 03/22/06 12:39 PM
Re: Taking a break…
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damien
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You too are saying things I agree with. I think we might have, for the most part at least, been at the same place to begin wtih. It was all just a problem of being unclear around definitions/connotations/etc. I take responsibility for that.
In reply to:
So, I would be careful going around saying "I'm proud to be white" becauses of the negative conotations to the phrase.
As I said earlier, I don't go around saying that. I said it once, here, and I regret doing so.
In reply to:
And for you to start cursing at me in your previous post was way out of line. Notice that I didn't curse at you. I honestly thought we could have an intelligent conversation without everyone getting upset. Guess not.
I wasn't exactly cursing at you. I was expressing deep frustration, using a colorful euphamism. I'm sorry if it seemed directed at you. But based on what I was reading and how it was coming across to me, I think my frustration was justified. But, once again, my anger wasn't directed at you as much as the words on the screen.
In reply to:
Doesn't mean you're racist; just means that you haven't had exposure to some of the issues that are out there.
And this statement is a prime example of what I get so frustrated about. I appreciate your clarifying that you don't think I'm racist. That's important to me. However, you are basically saying I'm ignorant. Based on what? How do you know what I've been exposed to and what I've not been exposed to? You don't. Please don't make assumptions about me based on my demographic and/or something I typed that was misunderstood. I have been exposed to more than you obviously know. Not just on an academic level, but on a personal life level as well. I would appreciate if you would give me credit for that and will thank you for doing so.
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Screw the whales, save the subjunctive!
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#176894 - 03/22/06 03:43 PM
Re: Taking a break…
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ME_MYSELF_AND_I
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I agree, this would not have become such an issue if you just would have answered my question as to how you define white pride. But you fear some sort of backlash against you and believe you will be vilified. OK thats fine, but Im still waiting on my PM........
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The most valuable and useful of all talents and abilities is that of never using two words or descriptions when one will do or suffice.
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#176895 - 03/22/06 04:44 PM
Re: Taking a break…
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damien
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Having made that statement, I don't believe my failing to define my terms is anywhere close to the only reason this became an issue.
And the backlash of which you speak actually happened.
Although I've decided this afternoon to get over fearing such thngs. I know who I am and what I am and what I'm not, so if I say something out of pure honestly, and am willing to admit when I make a mistake (which I've done countless times on this board), I am not going to worry about any more if people dislike me or what I say or want to respond inappropriately. I'm going to be true to myself...whatever the hell that means.
What pm?
I'll be glad to pm you...just don't know what you're looking for.
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Screw the whales, save the subjunctive!
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#176896 - 03/22/06 06:30 PM
Re: Taking a break…
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ME_MYSELF_AND_I
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This PM.....
Heres what I said on the bottom of the first page.
In reply to:
I'm simply tryng to understand you. If you wont answer my question here, PM it to me. Refusing to answer the question based on how you think people might react looks like a cop out to me. Im not trying to bash/flame you, I'm just interested in gaining some insight, thats all.
In reply to:
I am not going to worry about any more if people dislike me or what I say or want to respond inappropriately. I'm going to be true to myself...whatever the hell that means.
Glad to hear that
I dont think any backlash occured. But okay, agree to disagree?
_________________________
The most valuable and useful of all talents and abilities is that of never using two words or descriptions when one will do or suffice.
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#176898 - 03/22/06 10:34 PM
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Anonymous
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#176899 - 03/22/06 10:42 PM
Re: Taking a break…
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ajmakoko
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Well, I can't say that I have pride in my ethnicity. I think it's cool, the cultural background, but then again, I think a lot of history is cool, and for most of it I'm not related to it in anyway. Maybe I'm not so jazzed up about my race because I'm a BIG time mutt (Swiss, Italian, Scottish, Irish, German, and Swede).
My skin color is NOT part of MY identity. That's like saying my face is part of my identity, and then one day, I get into an accident, and my face is horribly disfigured (although some people might say it already is, haha), and then my identity is changed. WRONG. I am still the same person.
_________________________
You are a child of the universe,
no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
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#176900 - 03/22/06 11:39 PM
Re: Taking a break…
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damien
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I thought I finally answered those questions...?
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#176901 - 03/22/06 11:40 PM
Re: Taking a break…
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damien
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I like you too
"Kum bah ya my Loooooooord, kum bah yaaaaaaaaa..."
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#176902 - 03/22/06 11:41 PM
Re: Taking a break…
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ME_MYSELF_AND_I
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umm no, you gave the dictionary definition. But thats ok. We can drop it now.
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#176903 - 03/23/06 01:09 PM
Re: Taking a break…
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StrapingYoungLad
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In reply to:
That's like saying my face is part of my identity
My face is part of my identity. Face's are very importnat things.
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#176904 - 03/23/06 01:35 PM
Re: Taking a break…
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thepouncer
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Bye eddie >_< sucks to hear that.
I came back here to look for you and mum (angel), but you both left?? :/ can't find a way to contact u guys  miss you
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#176905 - 03/23/06 02:12 PM
Re: Taking a break…
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SinCity
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ya'll took a heartfelt post about someone feeling disrespected by a board member and the admins, and turned it into an argument about racism?
Seems I joined this board at the wrong time.
Nice concept. But I think I'll take a break too. And I just got here. I've read enough to know this isn't a place I'd want to be a part of, with the in-fighting and admin issues.
Hope you get a handle on everything.
*watches this site recede in the rear-view*
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#176906 - 03/23/06 02:27 PM
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Anonymous
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#176907 - 03/23/06 06:59 PM
Re: Taking a break…
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damien
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Not only is the "argument" over, but I think it was ultimately a constructive one. What I mean is that, if someone reads this thread from top to bottom - particularly where *that* topic came to fruition - there is a lot to be learned.
Arguments are good. They are dialogue. And most of them aren't conducted like a pure Socratic dialogue. A lot of times passions come in to play. And people overstate things, or say things that they need to backtrack on. That's all part of the process. As long as it doesn't dissolve into a pure name-calling, mud-slinging bitchfest. This one didn't do that.
If anyone leaves the argument having their views or ways of conducting arguments refined a bit, it was a good argument. I believe that happened here. No one changed their views on this one, but I for one walked away from it with some pretty darned good advice on how to/how not to conduct discourse on potentially divisive topics. It was good for me.
I'd actually like to hear if anyone else took anything constructive or helpful from the whole process.
Another thing...I was beating myself up a little earlier for sometimes bringing a bit of "passion" into a discussion. I was making a point in Psychopathology class today about sexual offenders with sexual addictions and realized I was getting a bit "passionate". But after thinking about it, I feel like I shouldn't feel bad about that or apologize for it. It's a good thing.
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Screw the whales, save the subjunctive!
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