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#19134 - 05/27/04 03:46 PM
conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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Anonymous
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i had thios coversation with a couple people at work...
we were talkign about cancer.. and one of the ladies mentioned that she had read about how they have the cure, but they dotn give it out, bc of all the money the disease brigns in + population control... i heard about that somewhere else a cpl years back before my uncle died from cancer of the bowels, what do you all think about that..?
it makes sense to me.. but im not sure if its true....
(how many doctors do you hear of that die from cancer??)
if that was all true tho.. imagine how many people would be out for blood if that go out... :S
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#19136 - 05/27/04 08:01 PM
Re: conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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Anonymous
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true...
but you never know...
anything is possible  some peaople can be real bastards - excuse my language
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#19137 - 05/27/04 08:28 PM
Re: conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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Ineligible
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This sort of conspiracy theory/urban myth has been around for many many years. My father was convinced someone had invented a match you could strike more than once, but the match companies had bought the patent and prevented it from being made. (Actually patents only run for 14 years, they are public records, and if they are not used by the owner another firm can force a licence.) In my day there was a similar myth about a car that would run on water, supposedly suppressed by the oil companies.
If there were a general cure for cancer you'd know about it.
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#19138 - 05/27/04 10:05 PM
Re: conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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Anonymous
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good point 
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#19139 - 09/20/04 02:12 AM
Re: conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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Anonymous
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To be truely honest it is possible. If a virologist was working for a drug company and he discovered the cure for aids or something he would not be allowed to release it due to... legal issues. So technically it is POSSIBLE that maybe one drug company could have developed a cure for cancer but because of the money they make off the treatment they choose not to release it. I mean look at magic johnson, he had aids and they said now in bloodwork he has absolutely no sign of aids.
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#19140 - 09/20/04 02:34 AM
Re: conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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Ineligible
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Well, a company with a much more effective treatment than anyone else has can almost charge what it likes for it, so long as the patent runs. I can't see that it would make more money without the treatment than with it.
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#19142 - 08/07/05 08:31 AM
Re: conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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antaean
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I saw this forum and had to join and reply.
I dont think its bull.Think about how much money the medical would lose if there was a natrual cure.Its funny how the medical dont like natrual medication/therapys.
The drugs/meds the medical medal with not only have diabolical side effects but they mess witht he bodys imune system and god knows what else they do to your body.here is just a example of why over the counter meds and the meds that the docs give you are not as good as natrual medicines.
take anti biotics for example after a certain ammount of time your body gets imune to them and they no longer have a effect and also they can make you ill upst your stomac the list goes on.But take garlic or any other natrual anti biotic and it wont mess your insides up and you wont become imune to it.Garlic has no side effects and not only is it a anti biotic it is said to do the following:
Garlic (Allium Sativum)
Garlic has some extremely great health benefits. It will lower your cholesterol and unclog your arteries. It will shrink cancerous tumors and keep cancer out of your body. It will also boost your immune system greatly. Now don't wait till you get sick or have cancer to start taking it..... start now! And see you life improve.
Here are the benefits that are shown from studies:
* Garlic lowers blood pressure a little.
* Garlic lowers LDL Cholesterol a little.
* Garlic helps reduce atherosclerotic buildup (plaque) within the arterial system. One recent study shows this effect to be greater in women than men.
* Garlic lowers or helps to regulate blood sugar.
* Garlic helps to prevent blood clots from forming, thus reducing the possibility of strokes and thromboses (It may not be good for hemophiliacs).
* Garlic helps to prevent cancer, especially of the digestive system, prevents certain tumors from growing larger and reduces the size of certain tumors.
* Garlic helps to remove heavy metals such as lead and mercury from the body.
* Raw Garlic is a potent natural antibiotic and, while far less strong than modern antibiotics, can still kill some strains of bacteria that have become immune or resistant to modern antibiotics.
* Garlic has anti-fungal and anti-viral properties.
* Garlic dramatically reduces yeast infections due to Candida species.
* Garlic has anti-oxidant properties and is a source of selenium.
* Garlic probably has many other benefits as well.
Not only does garlic cost less then other meds that the docs gives you but it works just as well and why dont you think they would like to advice you to take natrual remedies?.
I think its becuase they would lose money.
i belive that the medical is not interested in the health of the people but its more interested in money.
What do you think they native americans did when they became ill? did they go to the doctors and ask for chemical/foreign substances to be pumped in to thier bodies? No they used natrual things like plants,herbs.
This would it getting worse by the the day If i was a doctor and told you you had to take such and suck and pay $50 a week or you would become very ill and never walk again i bet you would buy it.and this my friend is how the system works.no one truly knows if medication from the medical works the people just takt thier word for it and hope for the best but they never stop to think that the mind has something to do with it all.if i was to give a 10 year old sugar pills for a headache and tell them it was pain killer the chanes are their headache will be gone quite quickly.
The above is jusy mt opinion/belifes do what ye will with the info either say to your self its nonsence or take the info in.its up to you
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#19143 - 08/07/05 01:09 PM
Re: conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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Steve_A
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Garlic is a wonderful, healthy thing, and there's good evidence that it has anitviral properties. Would you suggest that someone with an HIV infection take garlic rather than antiretroviral drugs, which are proven to extend life?
Would you suggest that that someone with a serious bacterial infection be given garlic rather than antibiotics? Even a bacterial blood infection?
I'm thinking of my own doctor when I read your consipiricy theory of doctors prescribing ineffective medications so that you keep getting sick, and they can keep billing you, and it's just not reasonable. The most humane, caring doctors prescribe antibiotics when appropriate. But I'm sure that's because you think they've been misled and don't know any better.
I'm sure that, eventually, more effective and less toxic antibacterial agents will be found, whether they come from nature or the lab, and which will be far more effective than garlic.
_________________________
Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. -- MLK
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#19146 - 08/08/05 02:19 PM
Re: conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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NtroducingMyself
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Sorry yes I meant FDA sorry 
>As far as the bread is concerned, was the seller making unfounded medical claims about the bread?
The claim the seller made was it will decrease hunger, which it did! People were losing weight and becoming healthier. Not one person who ate the bread became sick.(kinda the point, the bread was doing no harm at all). They simply didn't like the fact that a non-chemical substance that could not be patended was getting such good results. This is not the only case the cook talks about. Talks about several other cases where natural cures were actually curing certian diseases and tumors and because it's natural it cannot be pattended there for the FDA had a fit.
>I hope you're not going to take everything contained in "Natural Cures" as the gospel truth. Seriously, what is wrong with science education in this country?
Of course I never take anyones word or perspective as gospel, that's just silly. But no one can sit there and say that there are not natural cures for some of these diseases. I do feel the drug companies will never find a cure for any disease. In the last 100 years the only disease I know of that they found a cure for was pollio (sp). The drug companies get billions of dollars a year and we get nothing out of it, except hearing "We are soo close..." Sure the drug companies have giving us medication to help prolong our lives, like people with HIV. But do you honestly think they'll market a cure if they had one? Think of the money they would lose, not to mention the stalk holders dismay?
Another way to look at it. If you look at animals in the wild, you don't see them with diabetes, cancer, arthritis, altimers (SP?) and other rampit diseases we have. ALL disease are at an all time high, which is great for the drug companies.. but horrible for us.
Also if you do studies compared to those that use the drug companies meds to those who are hollistic.. those using herbal remedies generally live longer healthier lives. One reason is there are no side-effects to herbal remedies, plus no worries about becoming chemically dependant. Another awesome part, you body does not become immune to them (natural cures), as will happen with anti-biotics on pro-longed usage.
There are pro's and con's to everything, there are just way more pro's to herbal medications to simply ignore them.
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"Don't be a Dork! Wrap your Pork!"
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#19147 - 08/08/05 04:19 PM
Re: conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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Steve_A
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> The claim the seller made was it will decrease hunger, which it did!
When you say "decreases hunger", rather than "decreases appetite", I have the image of starving populations. Were they saying, "Eat this bread and you will lose weight?"
> People were losing weight and becoming healthier.
You base this on what? Anecdotal evidence? People's interpretations may be correct, or it may not be.
> They simply didn't like the fact that a non-chemical substance that could not be patended was getting such good results. This is not the only case the cook talks about. Talks about several other cases where natural cures were actually curing certian diseases and tumors and because it's natural it cannot be pattended there for the FDA had a fit.
So the FDA is just evil incarnate? It's pretty simple: If you make medical claims, you need scientific evidence to back them up. Otherwise, there would be a snake oil salesman on every corner, selling potentially harmful stuff. If you market something as a dietary supplement, then you have a lot more leeway.
The guy who wrote the book has a particular slant. I hope you didn't take what he said about the bread story as the last word on the subject.
> Of course I never take anyones word or perspective as gospel, that's just silly.
Not even the book in question? With which parts do you disagree?
> But no one can sit there and say that there are not natural cures for some of these diseases.
Of course. And sometimes the cure is time alone, since a lot of illnesses run their course, no matter what you do. People get better and tend to give credit as a cure to whatever they were doing.
> I do feel the drug companies will never find a cure for any disease.
There are cures for various types of infections. Would you suggest an IV of garlic extract for someone with sepsis? There's a new drug (G25) that appears to prevent and cure malaria. Ask Lance Armstrong if cancer can sometimes be cured by chemotherapy.
> In the last 100 years the only disease I know of that they found a cure for was pollio (sp).
There's a polio vaccine, not cure. Isn't that the idea, to prevent disease, rather than cure it? What naturopathic remedy is there for polio? Or the various forms of hepatitis? Or appendicitis?
What diseases have herbal remedies cured? If you have a digestive problem and an herbal remedy alleviates the symptoms (without bad side effects), that's great; the same goes for a pharaceutical agent. If the herbal remedy is cheaper, so much the better. But the underlying disorder remains, in either case. And who will assay the heral agent?
> The drug companies get billions of dollars a year and we get nothing out of it, except hearing "We are soo close..." Sure the drug companies have giving us medication to help prolong our lives, like people with HIV. But do you honestly think they'll market a cure if they had one? Think of the money they would lose, not to mention the stalk holders dismay?
If you own a mutual fund or an index fund, there's a good chance the you are (indirectly) a shareholder in one or more pharmaceutical companies. Drug companies produce vaccines. Medical companies produce splints and bandages, and surgical equipment.
Most medical research is done at Universities, and there is an orientation to treating illness rather than trying to cure it, or to just treat the symptoms of an illness. Some people need counseling regarding their diet and lifestyles. Obviously it would be better to get out of a bad situation rather than take antidepressants. But pharmaceutical companies are in the drug business, not the counseling business. Doctors deserve the blame for things like that.
> Another way to look at it. If you look at animals in the wild, you don't see them with diabetes, cancer, arthritis, altimers (SP?) and other rampit diseases we have. ALL disease are at an all time high, which is great for the drug companies.. but horrible for us.
You're talking about degenerative diseases that tend to strike elderly populations. Compare the life spans of animals in the wild versus animals in captivity, and you'll see that wild animals don't live long enough to get Alzheimer's disease. Still, wild animals do sometimes get cancer. The increase in human lifespan is due to better nutrition, better sanitation, and medical advances. When people died by age 40, incidence of degenerative disease was rare.
This is not to say that current diet and lifestyle doesn't lead to higher incidence of disease. But I don't really see how drug companies get the blame for that.
> Also if you do studies compared to those that use the drug companies meds to those who are hollistic.. those using herbal remedies generally live longer healthier lives. One reason is there are no side-effects to herbal remedies, plus no worries about becoming chemically dependant. Another awesome part, you body does not become immune to them (natural cures), as will happen with anti-biotics on pro-longed usage.
Some herbal remedies can cause a lot of damage. Many have side effects, some of which people can't tolerate. One problem with herbal remedies is that you never know the actual dosage or purity of what you're buying. Some normally innocuous herbs can cause problems when taken in too-large doses.
You don't become immune to antibiotics; the bacteria you're trying to kill do. It is unfortunate that medical practitioners often abuse antibiotics.
It is a big mistake, and completely unscientific, to claim that all herbal remedies are harmless.
> There are pro's and con's to everything, there are just way more pro's to herbal medications to simply ignore them.
It's possible, but it's hard to say with current knowledge. Of you're taking a religious approach, you may disagree. More research should be done. In fact, the researches and their families stand to benefit from all discoveries that advance medical knowledge, whether from laboratories or plants.
The placebo effect is a very, very powerful effect.
I have no illusion that the mission of pharmaceutical companies is to make our life better. Their responsibility is a fiduciary one to their shareholders. They research and produce products that will benefit them financially. But that does not mean they're behind some big conspricacy to supress knowledge.
Edit: Here's an interesting Web site, although some of the articles are a bit old:
http://www.quackwatch.org/
_________________________
Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. -- MLK
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#19148 - 08/08/05 05:06 PM
Re: conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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NtroducingMyself
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Lord how I love when you pick a part my posts trying to make me (and everyone else you do this too) look like an ass. Let me Clear things up.. step by step for you...
>When you say "decreases hunger", rather than "decreases appetite", I have the image of starving populations. Were they saying, "Eat this bread and you will lose weight?"
Guess I should have watched my wording, forgot who i was talking to. Yes of course decrease appetite. Excuse me for making that clear.. esp when hunger and appetiite go hand in hand. I'll try and be more specific in the future when your participating in the same thread so you will no longer be confused.
>You base this on what? Anecdotal evidence? People's interpretations may be correct, or it may not be.
Based on the data of the people that were eatting the bread. If you want more specific info read his book.
>So the FDA is just evil incarnate? It's pretty simple: If you make medical claims, you need scientific evidence to back them up. Otherwise, there would be a snake oil salesman on every corner, selling potentially harmful stuff. If you market something as a dietary supplement, then you have a lot more leeway.
FDA has its evil moments yes. But the point is this bread was not just "Wheat, water, eggs" etc etc it has natural grown herbs. THAT is what the FDA had a problem with.
>The guy who wrote the book has a particular slant. I hope you didn't take what he said about the bread story as the last word on the subject.
Is there ever a last word? Of course not. Again point being the bread was doing no one harm and people wanted to take it and it was 100% natural. If its doing no hard, why even bother?
>Not even the book in question? With which parts do you disagree?
In the book it talks about fast food companies adding certain chemicals to cause people to be addicted to the food and promote weight gain. Now this has always been a rumor, could be true could not be true.. who knows. Not something I personally believe in (thought has its merits).
>Of course. And sometimes the cure is time alone, since a lot of illnesses run their course, no matter what you do. People get better and tend to give credit as a cure to whatever they were doing.
When you say a lot of illness run their course that's subjective. I'm talking about true diseases.. not the flu or heart burn etc etc.. true life threatening diseases. Many of those do not run their course (unless you count death as running its course).
>There are cures for various types of infections. Would you suggest an IV of garlic extract for someone with sepsis? There's a new drug (G25) that appears to prevent and cure malaria. Ask Lance Armstrong if cancer can sometimes be cured by chemotherapy.
First off never said garlic was a cure for all remedy (hell I'm allergic to it lol). As for chemo, sure works great for some people and did wonders for Lance. I have never, nor will i say, there are not good scientific treatments. But there are other disease left untreated when there are other possible treatments for people to try and doctors and hospitals will not suggest. And not that some don't want to suggest them, but merely they are not allowed. Thanks again to the FTC and FDA.
>There's a polio vaccine, not cure. Isn't that the idea, to prevent disease, rather than cure it? What naturopathic remedy is there for polio? Or the various forms of hepatitis? Or appendicitis?
But because of the vaccine, there was a cure. That was kind of my point. Maybe when a disease first appears the point is to prevent to stop the spread, but because things take too long to make a vaccine, the point is to do both.. cure and prevent, not just prevent.
>What diseases have herbal remedies cured? If you have a digestive problem and an herbal remedy alleviates the symptoms (without bad side effects), that's great; the same goes for a pharaceutical agent. If the herbal remedy is cheaper, so much the better. But the underlying disorder remains, in either case. And who will assay the heral agent?
I cannot give you googled answers. All I can offer is my ex boyfriends sister developed lymph cancer, but luckily it was isolated and with some chemo it was able to destroy the cancer. BUT because of the radiation it caused her to develope severe IBS, downside of the chemo. Well the docs gave her tons of meds (like they have done for me) and nothing worked and she was miserable. Well with her own research she found a herb that was to ease (because they could not use the word cure) IBS symptoms. Within the first few doses of this herb she felt almost 100% better, after a few months she had no more bouts or pains and she no longer has to take the herbs and has had no problems since.
Oh and has for what disease has herbal remedies cured..do a google and you'll find many testimonies.
>Some people need counseling regarding their diet and lifestyles. Obviously it would be better to get out of a bad situation rather than take antidepressants. But pharmaceutical companies are in the drug business, not the counseling business. Doctors deserve the blame for things like that.
I agree with you there. Doctor offices love to hand out anti-depressants for everything.
>You're talking about degenerative diseases that tend to strike elderly populations. Compare the life spans of animals in the wild versus animals in captivity, and you'll see that wild animals don't live long enough to get Alzheimer's disease. Still, wild animals do sometimes get cancer. The increase in human lifespan is due to better nutrition, better sanitation, and medical advances. When people died by age 40, incidence of degenerative disease was rare.
Animals in the wild might develope their form of cancer. BUT its not near the percentage we have in our society. And yes animals in the wild live less, but thats for obvious reasons of "survival of the fittest" etc etc.
As for people living longer. I said in my previous post the drug companies have mastered prolonging disorders.. but no cures.
>Some herbal remedies can cause a lot of damage. Many have side effects, some of which people can't tolerate. One problem with herbal remedies is that you never know the actual dosage or purity of what you're buying. Some normally innocuous herbs can cause problems when taken in too-large doses.
If people do not know the dosage to take thats their own fault. There are many herb stores you can simply call and ask. Not to mention plenty of resources on-line to tell you how much to take. And you should always know where you are getting your herbs. Most people (If it's common) simply gown their own. A good friend of mine is a vegan and completely hollistic and grows all his own herbs, smart choice.
>You don't become immune to antibiotics; the bacteria you're trying to kill do. It is unfortunate that medical practitioners often abuse antibiotics.
Yes, again I suppose I needed to be more clear. Just figure you'd understand what I meant.
>They research and produce products that will benefit them financially. But that does not mean they're behind some big conspricacy to supress knowledge.
I dunno to me honest. I do feel that they do their best to find ways of easing symptoms and helping to prolong life. But at the same rate I don't feel they use every resource in finding a cure. Sorry Maybe I'm odd.. but I want a cure, to me thats easing pain and suffering more than a drug to prolong the ill perosn.
_________________________
"Don't be a Dork! Wrap your Pork!"
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#19149 - 08/08/05 06:18 PM
Re: conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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Steve_A
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Goddammit, every discussion with you that touches on science is a religious debate, because you seem to have absolutely no idea how science works.
> Lord how I love when you pick a part my posts trying to make me (and everyone else you do this too) look like an ass. Let me Clear things up.. step by step for you...
You're full of crap. If you post fuzzy thinking regarding a scientific topic, I will pull it apart. If you put in a moment of thought before you post, you won't look like an idiot.
> Guess I should have watched my wording, forgot who i was talking to.
You're posting to a public forum, where potentially a lot of people might be reading what you write. Unfortunately some people won't know the difference between drivel and fact, so you need to put some thought into what you write.
> hunger
You were talking about appetite, then you were talking about feeding hungry people.
>> You base this on what? Anecdotal evidence? People's interpretations may be correct, or it may not be.
> Based on the data of the people that were eatting the bread. If you want more specific info read his book.
That's anecdotal evidence! Is that the same thing to you as a double blind study? If you read the book and you're making a claim, you post the information. If you're not to lazy to type out a long posting, why are you too lazy to gather information? Are the people who liked the bread the same people who were abducted by space aliens?
>So the FDA is just evil incarnate? It's pretty simple: If you make medical claims, you need scientific evidence to back them up. Otherwise, there would be a snake oil salesman on every corner, selling potentially harmful stuff. If you market something as a dietary supplement, then you have a lot more leeway.
> FDA has its evil moments yes. But the point is this bread was not just "Wheat, water, eggs" etc etc it has natural grown herbs. THAT is what the FDA had a problem with.
WTF are "natural growth herbs"? What makes you thing that "natural" equals "harmless"? Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.
>>The guy who wrote the book has a particular slant. I hope you didn't take what he said about the bread story as the last word on the subject.
> Is there ever a last word? Of course not. Again point being the bread was doing no one harm and people wanted to take it and it was 100% natural. If its doing no hard, why even bother?
How do you know it's doing no harm? You didn't even say what the substance is. Arsenic is 100% natural, as is cyanide and plutonium.
>> Not even the book in question? With which parts do you disagree?
> In the book it talks about fast food companies adding certain chemicals to cause people to be addicted to the food and promote weight gain. Now this has always been a rumor, could be true could not be true.. who knows. Not something I personally believe in (thought has its merits).
Anything is possible, but if they did this, given all of the people involved in processing the food that MacDonald's and Burger King use, isn't it amazing that the secret has been kept all these years? And don't you think that if it's true and it were found out, the companies involved would be sued into bankruptcy? Fat alone, unadulterated, is very attractive as a food, for natural biological reasons.
>> Of course. And sometimes the cure is time alone, since a lot of illnesses run their course, no matter what you do. People get better and tend to give credit as a cure to whatever they were doing.
> When you say a lot of illness run their course that's subjective. I'm talking about true diseases.. not the flu or heart burn etc etc.. true life threatening diseases. Many of those do not run their course (unless you count death as running its course).
What do you mean by "true diseases"? Cancer sometimes spontaneously goes into remission. Sometimes people are able to fight off a lengthy infection using no drugs, natural or otherwise.
>There are cures for various types of infections. Would you suggest an IV of garlic extract for someone with sepsis? There's a new drug (G25) that appears to prevent and cure malaria. Ask Lance Armstrong if cancer can sometimes be cured by chemotherapy.
> First off never said garlic was a cure for all remedy (hell I'm allergic to it lol). As for chemo, sure works great for some people and did wonders for Lance. I have never, nor will i say, there are not good scientific treatments. But there are other disease left untreated when there are other possible treatments for people to try and doctors and hospitals will not suggest. And not that some don't want to suggest them, but merely they are not allowed. Thanks again to the FTC and FDA.
What cures do you specifically have in mind? The downside of just allowing the sale of anything by anyone to cure whatever they claim is that there will be a lot of fraudulent "cures". They will swamp whatever good natural treatments there might be.
In any case, no government agent will come after you if you choose to treat your cancer by ingesting peach pit extract. And no one is banning the book you refer to.
>> There's a polio vaccine, not cure. Isn't that the idea, to prevent disease, rather than cure it? What naturopathic remedy is there for polio? Or the various forms of hepatitis? Or appendicitis?
> But because of the vaccine, there was a cure. That was kind of my point. Maybe when a disease first appears the point is to prevent to stop the spread, but because things take too long to make a vaccine, the point is to do both.. cure and prevent, not just prevent.
No, a vaccine is a preventative, not a cure, just as a condom is a preventative for HIV infection, not a cure. There is a very promising HPV vaccine in trials now, but no cure. Show me a natural cure for HIV or HPV.
It's true that medical research focuses more on finding cures for diseases rather than preventatives. Scientists are trying to figure out what a healthy human diet is, but its a difficult problem; it's not that scientists want people to get sick so the drug companies have more sales.
I haven't seen and drug companies standing in the way of people who suggest eating more vegetables, fruits, and whole grains.
>> What diseases have herbal remedies cured? If you have a digestive problem and an herbal remedy alleviates the symptoms (without bad side effects), that's great; the same goes for a pharmaceutical agent. If the herbal remedy is cheaper, so much the better. But the underlying disorder remains, in either case. And who will assay the herbal agent?
> I cannot give you googled answers.
They don't have to be Googled. They just have to be factual.
> All I can offer is my ex boyfriends sister developed...
More anecdotal evidence. I'm happy she found relief, but we can only speculate whether the herb she took had the curative affect you credit it with. If you're convinced that it is true, you are maintaining a religious belief.
> Oh and has for what disease has herbal remedies cured..do a google and you'll find many testimonies.
You said you couldn't. What makes you think I can? A lot of people who've been to faith healers are also absolutely convinced that they've been cured by the laying of hands, or through a miracle of God.
>> Some people need counseling regarding their diet and lifestyles. Obviously it would be better to get out of a bad situation rather than take antidepressants. But pharmaceutical companies are in the drug business, not the counseling business. Doctors deserve the blame for things like that.
> I agree with you there. Doctor offices love to hand out anti-depressants for everything.
Doctors are often not very good at talking to their patients and finding out what their issues are...it's not just antidepressants. Doctors rarely have good training in nutrition.
>> You're talking about degenerative diseases that tend to strike elderly populations. Compare the life spans of animals in the wild versus animals in captivity, and you'll see that wild animals don't live long enough to get Alzheimer's disease. Still, wild animals do sometimes get cancer. The increase in human lifespan is due to better nutrition, better sanitation, and medical advances. When people died by age 40, incidence of degenerative disease was rare.
> Animals in the wild might develope their form of cancer. BUT its not near the percentage we have in our society. And yes animals in the wild live less, but thats for obvious reasons of "survival of the fittest" etc etc.
Here's where you fall on your face. For whatever reason they do, animals who live in the wild have shorter life spans than animals who live in captivity. They dies before degenerative diseases have a chance to manifest themselves. So what is your point? People who lived more naturally, whether 100 or 1000 or 10,000 years ago had shorter life spans, and it was not because they were being eaten by predators.
> As for people living longer. I said in my previous post the drug companies have mastered prolonging disorders.. but no cures.
While it's true that drug companies have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders, you make it seem as if they could just come up with cures if they wanted to. If you understood biochemistry better, you'd understand that curing disease is a very complex thing. And it's not as if medical research is only done by American drug companies. I know someone who runs a university lab in France researching mad cow disease (BSE), and who has an interest in Alzheimer's disease, and I can tell you that there are no easy answers. There is no known reasonable treatment, much less cure, for either, natural or synthetic. Same with rabies, once one starts showing symptoms.
>> Some herbal remedies can cause a lot of damage. Many have side effects, some of which people can't tolerate. One problem with herbal remedies is that you never know the actual dosage or purity of what you're buying. Some normally innocuous herbs can cause problems when taken in too-large doses.
> If people do not know the dosage to take thats their own fault. There are many herb stores you can simply call and ask. Not to mention plenty of resources on-line to tell you how much to take. And you should always know where you are getting your herbs. Most people (If it's common) simply gown their own. A good friend of mine is a vegan and completely hollistic and grows all his own herbs, smart choice.
No, it's not their fault. There is plenty of bogus information floating around. When I Google for information on an herbal remedy, I get dozens of sites that are selling it, and just have lots of reasons why you should buy the stuff, and none about why you shouldn't. They cite old, poorly done studies, to make their case, but skip over newer studies that contradict their claim.
Not everyone who works in a health food store knows what he's talking about.
And to repeat what I said before, how can you rely on the purity, and the label claims of dosages of active ingredients on some arbitrary package of an herbal supplement? When tested, they often turn out to be contaminated with things like heavy metals. And the dosages are all over the place.
Not many people will grow their own medicinal herbs, but more power to your friend for doing so.
This may amaze and surprise you, but some herbal supplements are harmful to some people, and can cause untoward side effects. It can get dangerous if you ingest a lot more of a substance than you think you're getting.
>> You don't become immune to antibiotics; the bacteria you're trying to kill do. It is unfortunate that medical practitioners often abuse antibiotics.
> Yes, again I suppose I needed to be more clear. Just figure you'd understand what I meant.
So what do you suggest for someone who gets a chronic infection?
>> They research and produce products that will benefit them financially. But that does not mean they're behind some big conspiracy to suppress knowledge.
> I dunno to me honest. I do feel that they do their best to find ways of easing symptoms and helping to prolong life. But at the same rate I don't feel they use every resource in finding a cure. Sorry Maybe I'm odd.. but I want a cure, to me thats easing pain and suffering more than a drug to prolong the ill perosn.
Clearly they don't use every resource to find cures, or they'd be out of business. That would be like an oil company ceasing exploration and production of oil while focusing all of their resources on fusion. Finding cures is a very, very difficult problem.
So, what about faith healers?
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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. -- MLK
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#19150 - 08/08/05 08:37 PM
Re: conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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antaean
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SteveA You are a twat man get a life.You think you know it all but you dont.
The info i put above was my beliefs anyone can say its aload of crap or they can belive it its down to them.You seem to have a problem with reading and understanding what you have just read.
If you had read it properly you would know that i never sejested people took garlic instead of thier normal meds/treatment i was just expressing me opinion/belifes which are the same beliefs as the first civilisation on earth they never pumped thier bosyd full of meds or chemicals.They used natrual things to heal themselfs.People have forgotten the ways of nature and they have forgotten how the body can heal itself if its ment to be healed and if its not ment to be healed then their time is up.When the ancients knew their time was up they used to walk up on to highland and lay there to die.the world was not over populated then and there was no such things as aids back then.They respected nature and nature gave them evrything they needed to live they never took more then they needed and they gave back to the land.THey did not fight nature.
If you fight nature you may win for a while but nature will fight back.remeber the black death? thining of the population well something like that will come soon and nature will thin the population and theres nothing anyone can do to stop it.those things would never happen if people didnt fight nature.Nature is not a thing to be disrespected.
Edited by antaean (08/08/05 08:38 PM)
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#19151 - 08/08/05 09:01 PM
Re: conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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Steve_A
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> SteveA You are a twat man get a life.You think you know it all but you dont.
Antean, you are a twat, man. Get a life and use more punctuation. You think you know it all, but you don't.
> The info i put above was my beliefs anyone can say its aload of crap or they can belive it its down to them.
OK, so you were expressing your religious beleifs. But some of your religious beliefs are objectively, factually, wrong.
> You seem to have a problem with reading and understanding what you have just read.
I don't think so. Are you having a problem expressing yourself?
> the world was not over populated then and there was no such things as aids back then.
Yeah, OK. So shall we thin out the herd?
> They respected nature and nature gave them evrything they needed to live they never took more then they needed and they gave back to the land.THey did not fight nature.
That sounds good. The main problem is that it's very hard to feed, clothe, house, and employ 6 billion (and counting) people without doing major damage to the Earth. As countries like China and India raise their standard of living, it's only going to get much worse. I wish I knew what the answer was.
> remeber the black death? thining of the population well something like that will come soon and nature will thin the population and theres nothing anyone can do to stop it.those things would never happen if people didnt fight nature.Nature is not a thing to be disrespected.
The black plague was caused by plague bacteria, and was spread by infection rats and their fleas, and exacerbated by overcrowding and poor sanitation. It was not some mystical curse from on high. Same idea for AIDS.
I look at nature as a system that we depend on for life, and should not be trashed or overtaxed. I guess you can use the word "respect", in the sense that you respect your scuba gear when you're underwater. But unless you're an adherent of certain religions, man's place on the Earth is no higher than that of any other living thing. In fact, most every living thing (except the cockroaches and rodents) would benefit by the absence of mankind.
But none of that supports the medical/pharmaceutical conspiracy.
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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. -- MLK
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#19152 - 08/09/05 10:33 AM
Re: conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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NtroducingMyself
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I'll be brief as I hate wasting my time in arguments with you.
>Goddammit, every discussion with you that touches on science is a religious debate, because you seem to have absolutely no idea how science works
Actually I do now how science works, again you are making judgements without knowing me. These are my beliefs, you don't have to like them.
>You're full of crap. If you post fuzzy thinking regarding a scientific topic, I will pull it apart. If you put in a moment of thought before you post, you won't look like an idiot.
Actually I never looked like an idiot for your concern. Actually have a few PM's about this topic where people think you're coming off like an idiot, and rude at that.
>You're posting to a public forum, where potentially a lot of people might be reading what you write. Unfortunately some people won't know the difference between drivel and fact, so you need to put some thought into what you write.
Thought goes into my typing, there are things that are simply common sense, unless you are saying you have none.. than I understand.
>You were talking about appetite, then you were talking about feeding hungry people.
Do try to follow. I stated the original purpose was a weight loss type suppliment that suppressed appitite. BUT when the FDA came in and seized the bread, he said atleast give it to homeless shelters so it doesn't go to waste. The FDA refused.
>That's anecdotal evidence! Is that the same thing to you as a double blind study? If you read the book and you're making a claim, you post the information. If you're not to lazy to type out a long posting, why are you too lazy to gather information? Are the people who liked the bread the same people who were abducted by space aliens?
*Shrug* I dunno if anyone was abducted by aliens, think that might be covered in a different book. Oh and the book simply tells the story about the bread and the man who produced the bread. again its all natural, blind studies generally aren't needed.
>WTF are "natural growth herbs"? What makes you thing that "natural" equals "harmless"? Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.
First NATURAL means nature grown. Almost ALL natural herbs are harmless (I think you like to read into to much, but I'll get to that alittle later in the post). In man made chemicals, there is a left and a right drug. The left drug is the one that is supposed to do the real work like help depression for exactly. But the "right" part fo the drug is the drug that pretty much just floats around you body, which usually causes the side effects like upset stomachs, nose bleeds etc etc. Natural herbs do not have a "right" drug, only a left. Get my point yet? Really no response is needed. (unless you really don't get my point)
>How do you know it's doing no harm? You didn't even say what the substance is. Arsenic is 100% natural, as is cyanide and plutonium
Yes he was putting Arsenic in the bread *rolls eyes* Serious Steve!! It was natural herbs that were GOOD FOR YOU hence you can eat it!! WOW.. concept. This is what I mean on you reading into things and you looking for an argument.
>Anything is possible, but if they did this, given all of the people involved in processing the food that MacDonald's and Burger King use, isn't it amazing that the secret has been kept all these years? And don't you think that if it's true and it were found out, the companies involved would be sued into bankruptcy? Fat alone, unadulterated, is very attractive as a food, for natural biological reasons.
Kind of like how the tabacco companies got away with putting extra addicting agents in their product to make peopel more addicted for many years, huh?
>What do you mean by "true diseases"? Cancer sometimes spontaneously goes into remission. Sometimes people are able to fight off a lengthy infection using no drugs, natural or otherwise
Again I repeat, I agree there are times when the body can heal itself. It has bene known to happy many times. There was no need for an extra discussion here.
>What cures do you specifically have in mind? The downside of just allowing the sale of anything by anyone to cure whatever they claim is that there will be a lot of fraudulent "cures". They will swamp whatever good natural treatments there might be.
Cancer to just name one. There are natural remedies that have got good results. A guy in germany treated 1000 terminal cancer patients with a naturla remedy and cured almost all of them. (Discussed in the book again).
>In any case, no government agent will come after you if you choose to treat your cancer by ingesting peach pit extract. And no one is banning the book you refer to.
Actually you are wrong. A Doctor nor a hospital can recommend any natural suppliment/treatment. Big insurance no no. They can tell you to look elsewhere for treatment but CANNOT recommend any natual suppliment or treatment.
>No, a vaccine is a preventative, not a cure, just as a condom is a preventative for HIV infection, not a cure. There is a very promising HPV vaccine in trials now, but no cure. Show me a natural cure for HIV or HPV.
Again read the book I am not here to relay the book for you. I have no clue if the book gives a cure for HIV. It does however talk about many other disease. I am not about to go and type everything out of the book for you. If you are that interested, spend the $29.99 and read the book. Oh and its subjective, but my opinion the book of a vaccine is to help cure the disease. If you stop the possibility of further infecting, in the long run you have cured the disease. BUT I feel a cure and a prevenative course is whats really needed.
>I haven't seen and drug companies standing in the way of people who suggest eating more vegetables, fruits, and whole grains.
Well yeah they cannot do that. But as soon as a herbalist says this can help with this disease, the FDA gets all flustered. If they feel that truely only man made drugs can cure disease, than stop bothering people who want to try herbal remedies. If its true only man made drugs can cure/treat a disease, these people will come back to the drug companies.
>More anecdotal evidence. I'm happy she found relief, but we can only speculate whether the herb she took had the curative affect you credit it with. If you're convinced that it is true, you are maintaining a religious belief.
Why does it have to be a religious belief???? It was the herbal suppliment she was taking, it was the only change she made. I think you just have issues that something nature grown can actually help someone. Not sure why you have this problems, it really perplexes me.
>Doctors are often not very good at talking to their patients and finding out what their issues are...it's not just antidepressants. Doctors rarely have good training in nutrition.
I was using anti-depressants as a simple example not a closed door for everything. Again no arguement here, nothing needed to be said...
>Here's where you fall on your face. For whatever reason they do, animals who live in the wild have shorter life spans than animals who live in captivity. They dies before degenerative diseases have a chance to manifest themselves. So what is your point? People who lived more naturally, whether 100 or 1000 or 10,000 years ago had shorter life spans, and it was not because they were being eaten by predators.
Hmm I feel on my face?? Lets see why animals live longer in captivity. 1) again no survival of the fitties. If an animal gets a broken leg, they get a cast instead of having to limp around in the forrest (or wherever) and become prey. Just one example of course 2) Everything they need for a home is handed to them , and 3) food is always in great supply. No hunting or days of not eatting. They get scheudled regular feedings. Hmmm.. gee that couldn't be why they live longer in captivity?? *sigh*
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#19153 - 08/09/05 11:08 AM
Re: conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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NtroducingMyself
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Sorry I had to get cut off, a tech needed to use my computer. I'll finish the rest here:
>While it's true that drug companies have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders, you make it seem as if they could just come up with cures if they wanted to. If you understood biochemistry better, you'd understand that curing disease is a very complex thing. And it's not as if medical research is only done by American drug companies. I know someone who runs a university lab in France researching mad cow disease (BSE), and who has an interest in Alzheimer's disease, and I can tell you that there are no easy answers. There is no known reasonable treatment, much less cure, for either, natural or synthetic. Same with rabies, once one starts showing symptoms.
Never said it was easy.. simply said it'll never happen. Big difference because if they ddi the drug companies would be out of business, and we know they will not have that.
>No, it's not their fault. There is plenty of bogus information floating around. When I Google for information on an herbal remedy, I get dozens of sites that are selling it, and just have lots of reasons why you should buy the stuff, and none about why you shouldn't. They cite old, poorly done studies, to make their case, but skip over newer studies that contradict their claim.
Simple.. research research research.. nothing more needed to be said.
>Not everyone who works in a health food store knows what he's talking about.
No but many do, esp if the store is ran by a true herbalist.
>So what do you suggest for someone who gets a chronic infection?
Sorry I am not a doctor nor a herbalist.
>Clearly they don't use every resource to find cures, or they'd be out of business. That would be like an oil company ceasing exploration and production of oil while focusing all of their resources on fusion. Finding cures is a very, very difficult problem.
I think that was my point a long time ago. The companies do not use resources they coulf use to find cures because it's all about the money. Atleast we agree on that.
As for Faith healers.. I dunno I find that interesting I really do. Sometimes I think its mind over matter. The healthier you feel the healthier you'll be. yet coming froma religious background I would love for it to be a true faithful miracle. But that is really another topic lol.
(Sorry if there were any typos but we are busy at work today and have to do backed up work. So I appologise that i did not geta chance to proof read)
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#19154 - 08/09/05 01:19 PM
Re: conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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Steve_A
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> The companies do not use resources they coulf use to find cures because it's all about the money. Atleast we agree on that.
Drug companies waste a lot of money on useless me-too drugs (like Nexium) that do exactly the same thing as drugs that already exist (like omeprazole, Prilosec, Protonix). It would be better if the research funds were directed elsewhere. But drug companies are private corporations, not charities. Their responsibility, as we've said, is to their shareholders.
But what most people don't understand is that drug companies don't do a lot of basic research. That is done mainly at universities and government research laboratories. Drug companies exploit promising research. So your problem is not so much with the drug companies as it is with the university and government research labs, and what they get funding to research.
In other words, railing against the drug companies is a big waste of time. You need to convince the federal government, which supports most of the basic research, to fund researchers who are doing work that you like. The idea of a drug company conspiracy is silly, and accomplishes nothing.
Targeted therapies are showing great promise for things like cancer treatment (i.e., effective but not toxic), as well as gene therapy. Drug companies already sell targeted therapy agents; I'm sure they'll jump on the gene therapy bandwagon when it becomes profitable.
But if you think they can just throw money complex diseases and find a cure, you don't understand the limits of biomedical knowledge. It's not a straightforward engineering problem, like a mission to the moon. A lot of money has been spent on independent researcher to find a cure for AIDS, and they still have a long way to go. There's no drug company standing in the way.
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But the bottom line for herbal remedies is that they have to be shown to work. That it "worked" for someone you know is bullshit. It's completely unacceptable. Why do herbal remedies get a pass and not have to meet any standards? The industry has political pull, so they got congress to get their stuff not to fall under the FDA's regulatory umbrella, as long as they play the game of not making "medical claims" (i.e., that their stuff will cure a particular disease).
The issue with most herbal remedies is that:
o there is no good evidence that they're (individually) effective. Anecdotal evidence is not good evidence!
o there is no way to know whether the amount of active ingredient claimed on the package is accurate, or even close
o there is no way to know whiter a preparation is contaminated or adulterated. Heavy metal contamination is common.
o Most people don't have a good understanding of how they react with each other, and with prescription and over-the-counter drugs.
It doesn't mean that herbal remedies are no good. It means that it's like the wild west. When you buy them, you don't know what you're getting, and you don't know if it will be effective. It's a faith-based transaction.
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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. -- MLK
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#19156 - 08/09/05 02:26 PM
Re: conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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Steve_A
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I'm sure that no earthly evidence will dissuade you from your beleifs. Same with someone who's just been faith healed and thinks their cancer is cured. Do you take echinacea for colds? Research has been done on that.
If a drug company can do research on herbs and profit from it, they will. If the can't, they won't. As I said, the drug companies are not charitable organizations. But as I said, and you may have missed, most research is done at university and government labs. Take your cause up with them. Or do you just like to complain?
My opinion is, "Show me that something is safe and effective, and I'll think it's great!" I'd love to be able to take things that are safe and effective for what ails me, no matter who makes them or wherer they come from. I couldn't care less about drug company profits. But I get the impression that you just believe what you want to believe, and nothing will change your mind.
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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. -- MLK
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#19158 - 08/09/05 03:45 PM
Re: conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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Steve_A
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>> Or do you just like to complain?
> Actually no I do not like to complain. Actually incase you haven't figured it out I'm pretty much a free spirited person. I am happy go lucky guy and I let a lot of things go past me and take it without heart (hurtful things that is). If I didn't, I'd be a very very sad person.
If you can get your face out of the narcissistic mirror for a moment, I was saying, "Don't just complain....do something to support your beliefs. Call your congressman. Write your senator. Find out how you can get more funding for university research." I wasn't asking for a self-analysis of your personality.
>> But I get the impression that you just believe what you want to believe, and nothing will change your mind.
> Same can be said about you. Reguardless what I would give you as evidence you'll disguard it with soem random excuse and it wouldn't matter.
In other words, "Nyah nyah, I know you are but what am I?" Well try me. Show me some non-anecdotal evidence! When I point to an authoritative source, your not impressed...something about Googling being bad. After many requests, you posted a long (but good) article (about trench mouth), then preceded not to point out what it said that supported your position (it didn't; you misunderstood it).
You never show me evidence. I say show me evidence. Your answer is that nothing will impress me. What a load of crap. You have the motivation to type long posts expressing your personal opinion. Why are you too lazy to do any research?
>>Do you take Echinacea for colds? Research has been done on that.
> Yes I do and woo hoo for the researchers on that.. one thing out of how many?? Anyways...
You've just proven that you have absolutely no idea what your talking about. If that's your whole answer, than you are an idiot, and this exchange is a complete waste of time. You don't understand the history of Echinacea, what it was used for, and how it came to be a popular (but apparently totally ineffective) cold treatment in this country.
> but who do you think funds the research labs? Reversed question, where do you think research labs get their money?? From the drug companies.
Medical research is funded by the federal government, state governments, university endowments, charitable foundations, private donations, and by pharmaceutical companies. And that's just in the U.S.!
>> "Show me that something is safe and effective, and I'll think it's great!"
> There are PLENTY of safe natural herbs you can take. Use your google buddy. You make something natural into something to evil. Sad part you have it backwards.. BUT it's your BELIEF and that's FINE.
OK, you can't show me anything. You take something "natural" and give it supernatural properties. As if just because something is natural, it's wonderful. Lack of research, for whatever reason, doesn't prove that something is good. And religious belief is no substitute for science.
I think it's not OK that you express opinions on scientific topics, when you have no grasp of science at all. It's an intellectual crime. You're not giving your opinion on some aesthetic topic; you're propagating incorrect information, regardless of what your GPA was.
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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. -- MLK
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#19159 - 08/09/05 04:18 PM
Re: conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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NtroducingMyself
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>If you can get your face out of the narcissistic mirror for a moment
ROFL! You're calling me narcissistic??? You have no RIGHT judging anyone. You don't even know me let alone have any right to judge my character.
>Don't just complain....do something to support your beliefs. Call your congressman. Write your senator. Find out how you can get more funding for university research
Who said I haven't? Guess what I have. but thanks for the suggestion.
>I wasn't asking for a self-analysis of your personality.
Was giving you a heads up since you haven't been able to figure it out yet.
>In other words, "Nyah nyah, I know you are but what am I?" Well try me. Show me some non-anecdotal evidence!
Guess I will have to completely repeat myself like every post. Since there have been hardly NO research from the affiliations you are looking for I cannot give you that.. only personal testimonies. Which your google engine can find for you.
> (it didn't; you misunderstood it).
Oh okay *rolls eyes*
>You never show me evidence. I say show me evidence. Your answer is that nothing will impress me. What a load of crap. You have the motivation to type long posts expressing your personal opinion. Why are you too lazy to do any research?
Steve you just like to talk/type.. nothing more. What about this being nothing more than a opinion thread don't you understand. Not everything in life has factual evidence. Open your mind for once LoL.
>You've just proven that you have absolutely no idea what your talking about. If that's your whole answer, than you are an idiot, and this exchange is a complete waste of time. You don't understand the history of Echinacea, what it was used for, and how it came to be a popular (but apparently totally ineffective) cold treatment in this country.
Than stop freakin posting.. and I'm the idiot? Give it a rest. My opinion is my opinion and your opinion is your opinion. It was a simple response for a simple answer. Didn't know you required a book report.
>Medical research is funded by the federal government, state governments, university endowments, charitable foundations, private donations, and by pharmaceutical companies. And that's just in the U.S.!
I could be going silly, but didn't I say the same thing? Drug companies are a top contributor to research companies. But thanks for agreeing
>OK, you can't show me anything. You take something "natural" and give it supernatural properties
Is your precious google broken?? Than use it! I am not here to give you your information. If you wish to know more about safe natural remedies look them up.
>And religious belief is no substitute for science
What does freakin religion have to dow ith this topic?? You keep bringing it up. This is a Natural "drug" vs man-man drug thread....hmmmm....
>I think it's not OK that you express opinions on scientific topics, when you have no grasp of science at all. It's an intellectual crime. You're not giving your opinion on some aesthetic topic; you're propagating incorrect information, regardless of what your GPA was.
babe.. get a grip..seriously. This is an opinion based topic. Not everything is going to have factual evidance. You have yourself so set in a direction of "give me facts now now now"..guess what? Not everything in life is that simple. I dunno how to make it any more clear. But one thing I know for sure your ego will make sure you get the last word. Guess my "GPA" has taught me one thing.. common sense and common curtesy not to treat people like shit. I accept people for who they are and the opinions they have. I have no need to call people idiots or ignorant. The world has many different people in it, and you have to accept them all. I have no need to try and hurt anyones feelings or degrade them. And don't worry (not that I think you worry) you have not hurt my feelings, I accept thats just how you deal with things.
Good Day.
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#19160 - 08/11/05 02:58 AM
Re: conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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Steve_A
longstanding member
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>> If you can get your face out of the narcissistic mirror for a moment
> ROFL! You're calling me narcissistic??? You have no RIGHT judging anyone. You don't even know me let alone have any right to judge my character.
I'm not evolution the entirety of your personality. I do have a right to evaluate what you type. "I - me - my" is fine in questions of taste and when relating personal experiences, but it's not appropriate in all contexts.
>> Don't just complain....do something to support your beliefs. Call your congressman. Write your senator. Find out how you can get more funding for university research
> Who said I haven't? Guess what I have. but thanks for the suggestion.
Great! Then I hope the research that you would like to have happen gets going as quickly as possible.
>> I wasn't asking for a self-analysis of your personality.
> Was giving you a heads up since you haven't been able to figure it out yet.
Frankly I don't care about your personality. I care about the fuzzy thinking and dearth of logic you express in topics that would benefit from a little clear thinking. It's true for infectious diseases, it's true for nutrition, it's true for astrophysics, it's true for a lot of things.
>> In other words, "Nyah nyah, I know you are but what am I?" Well try me. Show me some non-anecdotal evidence!
> Guess I will have to completely repeat myself like every post. Since there have been hardly NO research from the affiliations you are looking for I cannot give you that.. only personal testimonies. Which your google engine can find for you.
Are you equating personal testimonies and anecdotal evidence with truth? I really hope not. Are you equating them with well-done scientific studies? The lack of studies does not make your case. You seem to think that the studies that have been done are without merit.
Taking Echinacea for colds is just ignorant. You might as well go to a faith healer or wave a baked chicken over your head, for all the good it will do.
>> You never show me evidence. I say show me evidence. Your answer is that nothing will impress me. What a load of crap. You have the motivation to type long posts expressing your personal opinion. Why are you too lazy to do any research?
> Steve you just like to talk/type.. nothing more. What about this being nothing more than a opinion thread don't you understand. Not everything in life has factual evidence. Open your mind for once LoL.
Religious belief = clinging to irrational belief. If you think that's true for nutrition, you are utterly ignorant of science. The body is not a bag of magic. Your beliefs (some of which are ridiculous) are not true just because you believe them. Seriously, if you came into a university-level science class with that attitude, you'd be kicked out on your ass. Or failed.
>> You've just proven that you have absolutely no idea what your talking about. If that's your whole answer, than you are an idiot, and this exchange is a complete waste of time. You don't understand the history of Echinacea, what it was used for, and how it came to be a popular (but apparently totally ineffective) cold treatment in this country.
> Than stop freakin posting.. and I'm the idiot? Give it a rest. My opinion is my opinion and your opinion is your opinion. It was a simple response for a simple answer. Didn't know you required a book report.
It would also be stupid if it was your opinion that the earth was flat, and Newton's laws don't apply on Tuesdays. It would be stupid if you decided that 3 + 5 = 2. Some things are what they are, regardless of your opinion. If someone is fooled into thinking that you actually have some idea what you're talking about, they might actually waste their money or harm their health following your crackpot ideas.
>> Medical research is funded by the federal government, state governments, university endowments, charitable foundations, private donations, and by pharmaceutical companies. And that's just in the U.S.!
> I could be going silly, but didn't I say the same thing? Drug companies are a top contributor to research companies. But thanks for agreeing
I guess we're totally screwed then. All of the funding from non-drug company sources doesn't count, and the drug companies aren't going to do what you'd like.
>> OK, you can't show me anything. You take something "natural" and give it supernatural properties
>Is your precious google broken?? Than use it! I am not here to give you your information. If you wish to know more about safe natural remedies look them up.
Lazy guy, you make the claim, you back it up, or you really give the impression that you are full of crap. You are full of crap. It's pathetic that you don't realize it.
>> And religious belief is no substitute for science
> What does freakin religion have to dow ith this topic?? You keep bringing it up. This is a Natural "drug" vs man-man drug thread....hmmmm....
As I said above, clinging fast to irrational ideas is religious belief.
>> I think it's not OK that you express opinions on scientific topics, when you have no grasp of science at all. It's an intellectual crime. You're not giving your opinion on some aesthetic topic; you're propagating incorrect information, regardless of what your GPA was.
> babe.. get a grip..seriously. This is an opinion based topic. Not everything is going to have factual evidence. You have yourself so set in a direction of "give me facts now now now"..guess what? Not everything in life is that simple.
Not everything in life is that simple, eh? Chucking critical though and logic, and just believing what you want to believe is not simple? Your thought process is simple. Human health fall into the domain of science. It is not voodoo, although that's the only tack you seem to be able to take.
> But one thing I know for sure your ego will make sure you get the last word.
Let's see how your ego is doing. Pot. Kettle. Black?
> Guess my "GPA" has taught me one thing.. common sense and common curtesy not to treat people like shit.
Well it didn't teach you shit about clear thinking, logic, or science. You choose what lies outside of the domain of science, come up with some appealing beliefs, and you're done. If everyone followed your thought processes, we'd be living on the plains and eating bugs.
> I accept people for who they are and the opinions they have.
What does that mean? It doesn't mean that you agree with them. I accept that you have some wrong-headed ideas.
> I have no need to call people idiots or ignorant. The world has many different people in it, and you have to accept them all.
Your ideas toward rational thought are ignorant. Do you seriously think there are no ignorant people? Aren't you wonderful. You don't have to waste any time finding people who are good at what they do.
> I have no need to try and hurt anyones feelings or degrade them. And don't worry (not that I think you worry) you have not hurt my feelings, I accept thats just how you deal with things.
You post ignorant crap, and I will call you on it. If you don't like it, go find some herbalist board where you can admire the other posters' cleverness, and they can admire yours.
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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. -- MLK
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#19176 - 08/11/05 03:08 PM
Re: conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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Steve_A
longstanding member
Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 17349
Loc: South Beach, FL
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Spam is where you post the same stupid thing all over the place. The latter part of this thread is the same stupid thing, over and over, in a single place, involving two stubborn people, one of whom still insists that canker sores are caused by the cold sore virus, no matter what evidence is presented, such as the following, from the end of an article on the Colgate Web site:
In reply to:
"With all the antiviral medications, it is important to note that they are totally ineffective in treating aphthous ulcers, or canker sores, of the mouth," Dr. Greenberg stresses. "Canker sores are not viral infections. And antiviral medications should not be used to try to treat them."
Canker sores and cold sores are often confused, even by some health care practitioners. In addition to not being caused by a virus, canker soles are strictly intraoral (inside the mouth) and are not contagious. Cold sores, by comparison, are contagious, are caused by the herpes virus HSV-1 and usually appear on the lips not in the mouth.
This is what we're dealing with. It's a pointless discussion vis-a-vis the other guy, but perhaps a tiny bit useful to someone else who might be inclined to confuse magical thinking with reason.
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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. -- MLK
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#19178 - 08/11/05 03:27 PM
Re: conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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Steve_A
longstanding member
Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 17349
Loc: South Beach, FL
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The issue is not liking to argue (although, once again, "Kettle / pot / black"). What I don't like is people posting incorrect information, and then not backing down no matter how much evidence they are presented that they are wrong; they'll respond with, "Well, that's my OPINION!". What word would you use to describe that? Would "fuzzy headed" (search the thread) apply?
Ego doesn't have much to do with it. If I argued against someone that the Earth is not flat, ego wouldn't have much to do with that either. The canker sore thing is as objective as the idea of a spherical Earth. I'm baffled that you don't get that.
> I refuse to post anymore on this topic.
You've said this, what, half a dozen times or more? And I keep saying, "We'll see..."
Let's see if you can contain yourself this time.
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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. -- MLK
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#19181 - 10/02/05 05:09 PM
Re: conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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anally_correct
new member
Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 54
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Real story, my cousin went to Mexico to see a doctor who wasn't allowed to practice medical things in the US, after my cousin was diagnosed with HIV. I think he said it had lemon and garlic extract and a bunch of other things... and 12 years later nothing has happened... he has gone for check-ups... doctors think the HIV went dormant, me thinks it went away because there is actually a cure. But of course, we being americans, think our government is perfect, so we dont believe that nonsense.
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#19182 - 10/19/05 11:09 AM
Re: conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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Alky
new member
Registered: 10/19/05
Posts: 1
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I figured I would weigh in on this. The idea that university funding comes from drug companies is just wrong. Take my universty (Dalhousie): I search for research funding and found this:
http://researchservices.dal.ca/research_2759.html
which took me here
http://researchservices.dal.ca/files/research03-04-bysource.pdf
(funding for 03-04)
Now, the universty received 100 million dollars total from various sources. If you look down the list, you see, under busieness: 1.1 million (research grants), 2 million (research contracts) and 6.4 million (clinical trials)
Sum those and you get 9.5 million. That's just under 10% of the funding. That means the other 90% is coming from NOT BUSINESSES. For example, the governement gave a good 25 million, research foundations gave a good 30 million or so.
So don't go tell me universities get the majority of their funding from drug companies. If they wanted to make lots of money they would just try to stop research so they could sell ineffective medicine.
And by the way, I wouldn't consider Trudeau to be a trustworthy source. He's your general "They're just trying to suppress me!" person, when it's much more likely that he is suppressing THEM. (I've tried to google that bread story from a non-trudeau source, but I can't seem to find it, any help?)
As for your assertion that 'not all things can be proven factually' (paraphrasing): if you can't show that it works, you shouldn't be selling it as a remedy.
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