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#19184 - 10/19/05 08:51 PM
Re: conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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Steve_A
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> The idea that university funding comes from drug companies is just wrong.
Yes. I pointed that out somewhere. Unfortunately in the U.S., government reasearch funding is a bit of a political football.
A dirty little secret that drug companies don't want you to know is that the government funds universities to do research on certain drugs, including trials, and then drug companies scoop up the intellectual property, do something trivial with it, patent it, and profit enormously. Keep in mind that, in those cases, the research and development was done on our (tax) dime. That's one reason that the pharmaceutical industry spends twice as much on marketing as it does on research.
On the other hand, there are a lot of reserchers who have a financial interest in the outcome of their research. That can make for bad science.
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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. -- MLK
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#19185 - 12/07/05 06:06 AM
Re: conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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ohnonotagain
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Hello,
I just wanted to say a bit about Kevin Trudeau's book, "Natural Cures."
DON'T BUY IT!
That book doesn't list any products, or any remedies for any cures. All the book does is babble on like he does in his infommercial about how the FDA doesn't want you to know this, and that, because of drug companies... blah blah... blah.
Anyhow, What the book DOES do is say that you have to go to his website to find the "natural cures." Now, you have spent $29.95 on his book, and go to a website which asks you to pay $9.95 a month to find the "Natural Cures."
(I think it would be easier to find the Holy Grail than to find any cures in Kevin Trudeau's book)
Kevin Trudeau doesn't want you to know this but...
The FTC, not the FDA, DID ban him from selling "cures" on TV. The FTC caught him in a false advertisement scandal. They virtually banned him from the TV infommercial scene for a full year. The reason behind this ban was him trying to pass off common lawn&garden fertilizer as a cure. Coral Calcium, as it was marketed is actually nothing more than limestone, which contains calcium carbonate in an unpurified state. The same thing as Coral Calcium, is limestone pellets you can buy at Home Depot in an 80 lb. bag for about $3. furthermore, his claims about how the calcium affects the body were untrue, and outright lies, and even worse, he sighted medical studies and a german scientist's study on calcium's ability to cure cancer. The studies sighted were from the 1940's and were since disproven! Total joke...
Kevin does the same thing that Dupree and Sheets do. They sell you common information but label it as "top secret." Ever see those auction listings they sell? Big bold print...
2003 HONDA ACCORD FOR $500!! POLICE IMPOUND AUCTIONS! for listings call 1-800-blablablabla
What you buy into is a page right out of the yellow pages. They simply compile the auctioneers listed in the yellow pages from every single state, with a random sampling of cities. Then they charge you $60 for this "listing" of phone numbers, and they charge you $9.95 a month to update you with all the new auctioneers that get listed in the yellow pages. hmm... rip-off? If its too good to be true, you better change the TV station.
As far as Natural Cures goes, if you want the book, order it from Amazon, or go to CostCo and pick it up. It's only $16.00 at CostCo. Kevin wants $29.95 for it, and when you go to order it, apparently they try to upsell you into more expensive things, and then they bill your credit card $10 a month until you cancel your "subscription." Even better than CostCo, my local library has it, so I didn't pay a dime, and I get to go around and let everyone know that they should spend the $29.95 on a whole bunch of fresh vegtables and maybe a Richard Simmons excersize tape which will be more beneficial to your health and well-being than a traveling salesman's book about how the FDA destroyed a bunch of bread in Ohio.
By the way, on the bread issue... you had it right. The guy was marketing the whole grain bread as a way to "decrease hunger" not decrease appetite. That was his sneaky way of getting people to buy a "No Hunger" drug. Sure if you eat a loaf of bread, you are not going to be hungry anymore. If you listen to Kevin Trudeau, you'll hear him say "hunger" as per the true story. The guy was a snake oil salesman who did just have normal bread, but was marketing it as more than bread. Rather than the FDA taking chances on killing a bunch of hungry people, they destroyed it. They would have had to go through all the trouble to anylize each loaf to make sure that he washed his hands after wiping his butt of a poop, prior to handling the loaves of bread. legally, the FDA cannot take a confiscated "drug" (hey the guy was calling it a no hunger "drug," his stupid fault) and dispense it to the public. That's why the story got so much media attention back then. It was obviously just bread, but because the rules say they can't dispense a confiscated drug, it had to be destroyed. You can't get mad at the government for doing it's job. Ever see a master illusionist? Ever see a "how'd they do it" show about the master illusion, and then feel let down that the illusion wasn't real? If you saw Kevin Trudeau's infommercial, consider my post to be the "how'd he do that" answer to his illusion.
Something else to think about...
There are no secrets anymore. There is the internet, and constant media personalities fighting to open the next "Al Capones Vault." If any natural cures really work, you'll find them in the New England Journal of Medicine, or you've probably already heard about them. (Ex. garlic, lycopene, omega-3) If you ever see anything on TV that says, "I have a secret, buy my book to find it out." do a search on the internet. Chances are someone else has bought the book, and then blabbed out the secret on the internet. That, or there isn't a secret, and you just saved money through someone else's stupidity. A smart man learns from his mistakes, a truely wise man, learns from the mistakes of others.
Sorry, I just have a huge problem with these infommercial people. The only good things in life need just a 30 second time slot to win people's affection. If you need 30 minutes to sell me something, it's not worth having.
_________________________
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#19189 - 12/07/05 03:10 PM
Re: conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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Steve_A
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In reply to:
Well i read over those and I can see what they are saying. But that doesn't answer how people who have terminal cancer went to herbs and than went into remission.
It does exactly that. Were you looking for an explanation on the molecular level?
There are people who go into spontaneous remission, even when they're do nothing. Then mechanism of cancer is still not that well-understood, as bridge building is, and it's possible that some herbs might help some of the time. The problem is that the herb pushers are exploiting the lack of knowledge, and defining their stuff as a cure, and often profiting handsomely from it. Sick, desperate people are easy to exploit. Meanwhile, a lot of that herbal stuff is completely useless, and some of it is very harmful; sometimes an herb will react badly with another herb or drug. Another problem is that herbs are not classified as drugs, so no one is monitoring purity or active ingredient content.
_________________________
Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. -- MLK
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#19191 - 12/07/05 03:53 PM
Re: conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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Steve_A
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> What i find funny as soon as someone who had cancer goes into remission after taking a herb it's not the herb that did it it's "spontaneous remission". Let's make up new words and new medical terms just to keep people from finding natural routes.. seriously it's rediculous.
What I find funny is that people take some substance and go into remission, and it's always, "That stuff cured me! There's absolutely no doubt about it!" Yet, often, when the substance is studied scientifically, it turns out to have no effect. In other words, when you see two things happening at the same time, you tend to automatically set up a cause-and-effect relationship in our minds.
This is not to say that there's no way that no herbs are efficacious against any disease. I'm arguing against credulously believing disease-curing claims. The problem is that sick, desperate people are easily victimized. It's beyond unethical. It's odious.
> As for the guy I went too..
I'm not discussing your personal case.
> I just think more studies need to be put into natural remedies.. but we all know that won't happen because you cannot patent something natural. =-X
I'm pretty sure we've covered this ground before, but the federal government now has a program to support the research of non-tradition remedies by universities and medical centers. Private foundations are also involved. Not all research is paid for by drug companies. In fact, I'm pretty sure that only a relatively small part is.
Once again, a big problem with herbal remedies is that it's hard to know if you're getting an uncontaminated preparation; some remedies have potential side effects that users are often not aware of; they can interact badly with other herbal substances and "regular" drugs; since no independent agency regulates or assays the herbal substances, you never really know how much active ingredient you're getting.
We're not talking about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin here. Some herbal remedies can and have caused people big health problems, including death.
_________________________
Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. -- MLK
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#19195 - 12/07/05 04:18 PM
Re: conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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sdp
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I'm sure there are a lot of natural remedies that are out there or perhaps have yet to be discovered. I can't list any modern medicines, but I'm sure many are not synthetic man-made stuff, but rather extracted or developed from plants etc..
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#19196 - 12/07/05 04:33 PM
Re: conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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Steve_A
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I agree with that. Many drugs came from plants, but are now made synthetically. The molecule is the same, and the effect is the same, as the drugs that came from the plants. The active ingredient of aspirin orignally came from the bark of a tree. The source of the key ingredient in Temiflu is the star anise fruit. Unfortunately, there's not nearly enough of it available, and the processing it is complex, so an alternate source (one has allegedly been found) or a synthetic source is needed.
One of the saddest things about losing so many plant species (especially in the rain forests) before they can be analyzed is that good treatments for diseases may be lost before they can even be discovered.
My issue is not with the idea of herbal remeides, but the way they are marketed. I just hope that people aren't giving up standard medical treatment that's know to be effective for some herbal treatment that sounds cool. If you have cancer, for instance, complementary therapies are fine (as long as your doctor is aware of what you are doing, if it involves ingesting things), but they are not a reasonable substitute for chemotherapy, etc., in the great majority of cases.
_________________________
Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. -- MLK
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#19197 - 12/07/05 05:12 PM
Re: conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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NtroducingMyself
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>I agree with that. Many drugs came from plants, but are now made synthetically. The molecule is the same, and the effect is the same, as the drugs that came from the plants.
In man made synthetic chemicals, there is a left and a right drug. The left drug is the one that is supposed to do the real work like help depression for example. But the "right" part of the drug is the drug that pretty much just floats around your body, which usually causes the side effects like upset stomachs, nose bleeds etc etc. Natural herbs do not have a "right" drug, only a left. This is what happens when mankind tries to duplicate something nature makes.
>One of the saddest things about losing so many plant species (especially in the rain forests) before they can be analyzed is that good treatments for diseases may be lost before they can even be discovered.
I could not agree more!!!!!
>My issue is not with the idea of herbal remedies, but the way they are marketed.
I will not dispute the fact that when it comes to herbs they should not be labeled by anyone as a "Cure". I see nothing wrong on the other hand "labeling" it as something that can possibly help.
>If you have cancer, for instance, complementary therapies are fine (as long as your doctor is aware of what you are doing, if it involves ingesting things),
I agree you certainly need to communicate with your doctor because last thing anyone would want is an unwanted side effect from conflictions.
>but they are not a reasonable substitute for chemotherapy, etc., in the great majority of cases.
In your opinion, BUT there are cases when chemo was unsuccessful and people were basically left to die. Then they tried something holistic and went into remission.. Yeah yeah I know "Spontaneous remission" right? blah I say!
I want to give a brief story; though I know Steve you hate them. When I went and seen the Iridologist there were two younger ladies in his office first. Well as they were leaving he asked them if they would share their story with me. Well a month ago these two ladies lost their sister to a genetic disease that all three sisters inherited. Well before their sister died the oldest of the sisters started taking herbs from this Iridologist. Well the sister that died didn't believe in the herbs and thought they were silly. Their other sister was torn between it all. Well unfortunately their sister died, but the sister that was taking the herbs is now in complete remission of this disease and now the other sister was there that same day getting the herbs. To me that was a very powerful testimony from real life people. Though I am sure you'll tear it apart, it was moving for me.
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"Don't be a Dork! Wrap your Pork!"
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#19198 - 12/07/05 05:33 PM
Re: conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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Steve_A
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> In man made synthetic chemicals, there is a left and a right drug.
What the hell are you talking about? Are you posting Internet spam as if it's scientific? Is there a left and right aspirin, as well as the countless other synthetic drugs that were originally derived from plants? How about penicillin?
> I see nothing wrong on the other hand "labeling" it as something that can possibly help.
The problem is that anyone can label anything as a possible treatment for whatever. Then you get things like ground up sea shell pills that are full of heavy metals. You never really know what you're getting, unless an independent lab assays what you're taking.
> BUT there are cases when chemo was unsuccessful and people were basically left to die.
And the vast majority of them go on to die of their illness. Do you have any numbers for how many of them then went on to be cured by herbal treatment, or is wishful thinking good enough for you?
> Yeah yeah I know "Spontaneous remission" right? blah I say!
I say that an herbal treatment can be effective for a certain malady, but it should be studied. You seem to be saying that spontaneous remission is a bunch of BS. You apparently know more than lots and lots of PhDs. Good for you.
> I want to give a brief story
The problem with your stories is that they may be inspirational, but they are completely worthless from a scientific perspective. If you want to be credulous, that's fine, but people need to know that taking some herbal remedy is not a slam-dunk cure for things like cancer. Thankfully Lance Armstrong realized that. Many, many people go into long-term remission from standard cancer therapies, of which chemotherapy is just one. Childhood leukemia is just one area where great progress has been made.
With your logic, people might as well go to TV preachers for their cures. You get a push on the forehead, you fall down on the ground, and your disease is cured. It's so simple. There are lots of stories.
_________________________
Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. -- MLK
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#19199 - 12/07/05 07:23 PM
Re: conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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sdp
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One of the saddest things about losing so many plant species (especially in the rain forests) before they can be analyzed is that good treatments for diseases may be lost before they can even be discovered.
I read a story about someone who would go out into rainforests etc.. to harvest samples of various plants for medicinal study. Apparently, one species of plant from a certain region had very promising properties. They dispatched the guy to get more samples. When he arrived to the area where he found the plant, it had been clear cut. He found the same/similar plant in other areas, but there was something about the plant in that area that was not found in the other plants. The potential in that plant was lost.
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#19201 - 12/07/05 09:31 PM
Re: conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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Ineligible
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Registered: 08/09/01
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In reply to:
In man made synthetic chemicals, there is a left and a right drug. The left drug is the one that is supposed to do the real work like help depression for example. But the "right" part of the drug is the drug that pretty much just floats around your body, which usually causes the side effects like upset stomachs, nose bleeds etc etc. Natural herbs do not have a "right" drug, only a left. This is what happens when mankind tries to duplicate something nature makes.
In reply to:
What the hell are you talking about? Are you posting Internet spam as if it's scientific? Is there a left and right aspirin, as well as the countless other synthetic drugs that were originally derived from plants? How about penicillin?
Most organic molecules are "chiral". This means that they are different from their mirror images. Chiral molecules come in two mirror-image forms, which we can call left and right if we wish. Other molecules (especially small simple ones) are achiral, which means they are the same as their mirror image, and only have one form.
Mirror image molecules have identical properties except when they interact with something else that is chiral. The biochemicals in our body are nearly all chiral, and present in only one of the two forms. Usually only one of the two forms of a chiral drug is active (not necessarily the "left" form), and the other is usually inactive and may be toxic. Chiral molecules from biological sources are usually present in the plant or animal only in one form - penicillin is an example, as are cocaine and morphine and almost every orther alkaloid. (Aspirin is achiral.) Molecules made synthetically, however, if they are made from achiral starting materials, will have both forms. (This was used in Dorothy Sayers' The Documents in the Case to prove a death was murder.)
The two forms can be separated but it adds significantly to the cost, and it used not often to be done by drugs manufacturers. Now, however, separation is much more common. Thalidomide was a notable example why this is a good thing - the birth defects were not caused by the active form of the drug, but by its mirror image.
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#19203 - 12/08/05 10:45 AM
Re: conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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NtroducingMyself
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>The problem is that anyone can label anything as a possible treatment for whatever. Then you get things like ground up sea shell pills that are full of heavy metals. You never really know what you're getting, unless an independent lab assays what you're taking.
You're talking about one certain herbal med.. There are many herbs that have been used for thousands of years. Problem is the drug companies cannot make money off the herbs so they discard their potential usage. I am not saying on here people should run out and take herbal meds over man-made drugs, simply saying their are other options as well, esp when the man made drugs fail.
>And the vast majority of them go on to die of their illness. Do you have any numbers for how many of them then went on to be cured by herbal treatment, or is wishful thinking good enough for you?
Oh yeah it's all wishful thinking Steve. Get a flipping grip LoL. Ask your questions without the underlining insults. I doubt there is a recorded study out there that will list how many people were cured of natural remedies. Though I'll see if I can find that for you Steve. Though regardless it'll mean nothing to you, because you'll find some way to disregard it.
> say that an herbal treatment can be effective for a certain malady, but it should be studied. You seem to be saying that spontaneous remission is a bunch of BS. You apparently know more than lots and lots of PhDs. Good for you.
I never once said herbal remedies shouldn't be studied.. Actually I have been saying the total opposite that they SHOULD be studied. And I am not saying spontaneous remission isn't possible because our bodies are wonder machines.. BUT classifying everything as spontaneous remission when someone is taking herbal remedies that could have cured the disease is what I am calling ridiculous. Oh and yes I know WAY more the any Phd, so glad you finally realized *rolls eyes* note the sarcasm please.
>The problem with your stories is that they may be inspirational, but they are completely worthless from a scientific perspective.
No Steve lets be honest.. it's point TO YOU because there is no scientific data to prove it was the herbs. How many doctors do you think are going to say it was the herbs that cured a person even if it’s true... not many.
>If you want to be credulous, that's fine, but people need to know that taking some herbal remedy is not a slam-dunk cure for things like cancer
Please Steve quote me to where I EVER said this?? First off I NEVER would say that. I'm not about trying to play with someone else’s lives. All I am trying to say is that is Chemo fails there are options of a natural source that MIGHT help. That's all I have been saying and you keep trying to make it sound like I am saying the opposite when I am not.
>Many, many people go into long-term remission from standard cancer therapies, of which chemotherapy is just one. Childhood leukemia is just one area where great progress has been made.
Would never and have never denied that. Would be foolish of me to say otherwise. My Aunt was diagnosed with breast cancer and modern medicine worked great for her.
>With your logic, people might as well go to TV preachers for their cures.
Steve I am cool with you not accepting the natural approach, but your underlining insults are truly childish. Again you make it out like I am saying all natural cures are the miracle "drugs" when I am not saying that. Again I am saying is they are an option and an option I think needs to be further studied as well.
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"Don't be a Dork! Wrap your Pork!"
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#19204 - 12/08/05 01:24 PM
Re: conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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Steve_A
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>> The problem is that anyone can label anything as a possible treatment for whatever. Then you get things like ground up sea shell pills that are full of heavy metals. You never really know what you're getting, unless an independent lab assays what you're taking.
> You're talking about one certain herbal med..
No, that type of problem (contamination, and not knowing how much active ingredient you're getting, regardless of what the label claims) is a problem for most herbal "dietary supplements". That's true for things in bottles (that have been processed) and for things in thier original state (e.g., a type of flower). It's very easy to get too large a dose of something, which can lead to problems.
Consumer Reports got pretty mixed results when they assayed Omega-3 fish oil capsules, which is regulated as a dietary supplement, like herbal things. A lot of them were contaminated, and didn't contain the amount of active ingredient claimed on the label (although, at the time, Costco's store brand tested well). The same sort of thing has been found when herbal medicines have been tested. You just don't know what you're getting. And there doesn't seem to be much of a correlation between price and quaility.
. . .
>> The problem with your stories is that they may be inspirational, but they are completely worthless from a scientific perspective.
> it's point TO YOU because there is no scientific data to prove it was the herbs.
So you're absolutely, 100% certain? No doubt at all? That is an unscientific opinion, and your story adds nothing to the body of science on the subject. People fool themselves very easily, and tend to see what they expect. Your story is no different than the story of people who are "cured" by television faith healers, from a scientific perspective. The personal stories add very little to the body of useful knowledge.
_________________________
Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. -- MLK
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